Professional Learning and Teacher Agency: A Conversation With Lisa Schmucki

This interview was originally recorded on [date], as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.

Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.

[Start of recorded material: 00:00:01

Elana:

now over decades. [inaudible: 00:01:16

Lisa:

Yeah. We're not going to talk about how old I am.

Elana:

Well, I'm getting there, too. I just feel like throughout our past, I obviously got introduced to you when I was at Edutopia, but you've always been such an incredibly kind and collaborative person. Always just a go-getter and we'll get it done, let's do this, let's work together, but what you do for educators and have helped them professionally, that is something that just brings me to goosebumps. And when you said you recently got highlighted in a book for women that are just so purpose-driven and impact-driven, I was like, "Yes, yes." You have done so much. And I'd love you, I know it's hard to talk about yourself around that, but we're going to talk a little bit about your journey, so that might be a good time to get into a little bit of that.

But for those of you listening, we will be talking about professional development. So edWeb is in the center of that, but they also dabble in all things marketing, too. So we might be talking a little bit about marketing in that with you. Educators that are listening, we'll be talking about how you can choose professional development that will best support you. How do you have agency in this? So much in education professional development is potentially dictated to you and, like, here's what you have to learn, but how can you navigate that? How can you become that lifelong learner that you always have been because you are an educator? So we're going to give you tips on how to be an agent in your PD community.

For you EdTech companies that are listening, professionals that are navigating this crazy world of EdTech, we will cover how you can offer professional development for your product in an effective and helpful way for educators. And I know that sounds simple, but those of you that have tried know this is very not simple. And so we're going to lay down some great tips and advice from someone who's been in the industry for decades. So Lisa, thank you so much for joining. Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education.

Lisa:

Thank you. This is lovely. I mean, and thank you for the kind words. And I must say one thing I really realized is that professional learning is something that can connect us all. So I think whether you're a solution provider or you're an educator, whether you're a teacher or a superintendent, it is something that really can connect us. And it was just more important during the pandemic. And everything that we do is virtual. We haven't yet ever done anything in the real world yet. We do it all online. And with the pandemic, I think what we saw is a lot of the ways in which it can really be helpful. The term silver lining has been used, maybe overused, but I think virtual professional learning is something that's been a good thing to keep us all connected. Whether it's informal, like a Zoom chat or a more formal program, it can have a range of the ways in which you engage and how much time it takes. And in some ways just how serious it is, how formal or informal it is.

Elana:

I love you're diving right in, but I think the question I want to ask you is how would you define professional development? Because I think sometimes in our head we go, "Oh, that's got to be this." If I'm an EdTech company, maybe it's a big course and it's going to take forever. And so then you never do it. But there's so many different variations of what professional development can be and how you can seek out different variations as an educator. So if you were in an elevator with me and be like, "Oh, I never heard this term PD," what is it?

Lisa:

Well, it's really interesting you ask that, because I think when you say PD, what you just said, professional development, it brings up one set of associations as opposed to the term professional learning, which is more preferred now, which can be more informal, more self-directed, not as -- more personalized. Where if you think about PD and professional development, you think of what a district has made you do, made you sit in a room. We've all seen those pictures of people falling asleep on the desk, sitting in the room, how it's not customized for needs and for the district. It's expensive where they're bringing in people and they're paying people who tend to be more generalists to talk to a whole group. So I love that it's become much more personalized and differentiated. However, educators do often have PD requirements or professional learning requirements or PD hours.

So then you do have to think about if a teacher has 25 hours they need to accumulate during the course of a year, what is accepted for those hours? And there's even more flexibility now. So we began five years ago getting approval. We're now approved in 42 states for a teacher to come watch a webinar for free and use that hour to renew their state teacher's license. We're particularly glad we've been able to do that. We've issued four million certificates since we started doing this, which is pretty incredible. That's all free hours and before, they often had to pay for something.

Elana:

Wow, four million hours. And I remember when we first started getting edWeb on our radar, it's hard to get certified by all these states. I looked into it way back in the day when I was running webinars for Edutopia and I'm like, "Oh no, that's a headache." And they're all different for each state. So congratulations for being in the states that you are in, the amount of credit, and just making it so easy for educators to say, "Okay, I can choose what I want to listen to. I want to direct my own learning and get credit for it."

Lisa:

Right.

Elana:

Okay. So we just dove into PD, because I know you're really, I'm going to call it PL, but people don't do that.

Lisa:

Yeah. I know, we're trying to use that term, but then people don't know what you're talking about.

Elana:

Yeah. I mean, the marketer in me wants to use the searchable term, but then the educator-friendly person in me wants to use the term that maybe isn't as triggering sometimes because of that. But okay, let's get into you a little bit.

Let's start with the foundation of Lisa circa 40 years ago or something. How did you start this vision for education? Did you always say, I'm going to start this company? How did you have the spark around changing and helping and improving education?

Lisa:

Well, it's interesting you asked that, because as you mentioned before, and I'm going to do a little plug for Kathy Hurley and Barbara Kurshan, because they published a book this year on women entrepreneurs, how purpose-driven women rise to the top. And in some of the conversations that we had starting out on this, it was sort of like, well, when did you start thinking about becoming an entrepreneur? And I never thought of it that way. I never approached it that way. It was just, I've always been loved school, I loved my teachers, I loved learning.

And the thing that I've realized over the course of my whole life, the thing that I really like most of all is problem-solving. And it doesn't matter what the problem is. It could be a family problem, it could be the problem of how am I going to get that turkey on the table next week for the people who are coming for Thanksgiving dinner. And so that love of education, just from being a very young child and loving my teachers, just eventually caused me to see some of the problems of how...

My career wasn't in education. I worked for, as you know, educational publishing companies and media companies. And so because I had never been in schools, I always struggled as a marketer to understand what teachers needed, and was always advocating for focus groups and going to conferences, and it was never enough. And so I saw when social networks came along 14 years ago, it's going to be our 15th anniversary this next year, that social networks could be a way for us to solve this problem of how do we get people in the industry to be able to be in the same room, a virtual room with educators, and learn from that and so that we can all benefit.

Elana:

Wow. Yeah. And it's funny because anybody I interview that started companies or that, this and that, it's never like, "I want to be an entrepreneur." Usually it's like, "Oh, this is a problem, or I'm inspired by this and let me go." And then the marketing directors and VPs of marketing I work with in education, you're right, they always want more focus groups. They always want more, and they should because they need to holistically understand who they're marketing to and all the challenges and needs and successes, and how their product fits into it, but it's never enough. And I mean, you're so right and I just want to applaud you for almost 15 years. That's amazing.

Lisa:

I know. Well, and then this idea of passion for education, I don't think I even came into it going, "I have a passion for education." It wasn't really. I mean, I wanted to have a career that I thought had meaning and could make a difference. So when I worked for publishing companies or meeting companies, and we were doing books or film for educators, that was fine. But it was through starting something that I hoped would be a better solution in some corner of this world and how hard it is, how the sacrifices you make, the risks you take, how scary it is when you start first start hiring people and realizing you have to pay them on a regular basis, and you're terrified and you start asking yourself, "Why am I doing this?"

Then I said, "Oh, I must really love my teachers. I must have loved them." And this is a way for me to very much feel like it's a way to pay it forward. We really hardly ever get to go back and thank those teachers for what they did. Many of them, now mine, aren't living any longer. But if I can do that forward, then that gives me a sense of purpose.

Elana:

Nicely said. So we talked about professional learning, see how I'm correcting a little bit, but we --

Lisa:

Yes, yes. In your terms aligned.

Elana:

Yeah. The difference between PD and professional learning a little bit, what is it? The various forms it can take. But I know that you have a lot to say around this, and it's very nuanced, but what is the most effective professional develop--? I know that's a loaded question, so sorry for asking it. But in your mind, what do you see that really works to improve practice of educators?

And you talked about the system a little bit in the world of professional development, typically it's not the educators that generally get, I mean, there is some flexibility on hours where they get to choose their PD and things that qualify and not. But in general, professional development for the educator is somewhat dictated. "Hey, we bought smart boards, and you're going to do smart board training." Related to the technology that they purchase on a district, but by the way, generally doesn't have a ton of educator input, either. So we talked about a little bit of the ecosystem, but what would you say is the most popular type of PD you see educators opting for?

And then, I mean, we can talk about what you think are maybe characteristics of effective PD. Because what is effective PD is a very loaded question I know I don't want to throw at you, but if you have thoughts around that.

Lisa:

Well, I think that one of the things I've thought about and I've said frequently and I don't even know how this is going to sound, but I think one of the reasons we were able to build something that is effective is because of my experience as a marketer and coming out of the industry and not being an educator. I mean, I did very much feel handicapped that I didn't have that experience of being a teacher. And that's a little bit of a whole 'nother story why I wanted to go into teaching when I was younger, and I had reasons why I didn't choose it as a path right out of college. That's another story. That's like into the woods, that's another story, never mind.

Anyway, but back to the fact that I came up with this idea coming out of the industry side and wanting to solve a problem that I first experienced personally, but then also realized was a more general problem of how do we get the industry closer to educators to understand what the needs are and how they're working, and didn't even set out to create a professional learning solution. I just saw how many contacts and resources publishers and media companies had and the knowledge that they had. And I also could see how much educators needed, particularly as social networks came along. It was really first an observation around the use of technology.

So when my daughter showed me Facebook, the first thing that came to my mind was how far students were ahead with technology already and that we were going to have to do something to help the teachers learn about these networks and get caught up, or otherwise they were just going to continue to get further and further apart. So the original idea for edWeb was to help with the adoption of technology, and then we evolved into professional learning. Now our most popular topic is mental health and social-emotional learning. It doesn't really have anything -- it's the human side, not even the technology side. But I saw that so the companies could tap into their resources and do programming that would benefit educators that was really needed.

And as we all know, companies always want to build relationships with educators, form relationships get leads and that could be the benefit for them and that should be free, because they're going to ultimately sell more product or more services because of the service that they are providing. And then the educators get to have the free professional learning. And the thing, I guess it was a big surprise or what I wasn't sure about was, would sponsored professional learning be for one approved and accepted for credit like it has been in the states, appreciated as something that's not tied to sales. And we always say our programs need to be professionally not tied to sales. And just fortunately, that has worked.

Elana:

Yeah, and I appreciate you kind of going back contextually, because in the beginning you probably -- like, it's nice to know that you were thinking about there was this tech gap that you saw a problem for.

Lisa:

It was a digital divide.

Elana:

Yeah. And although you do have a lot of EdTech stuff on edWeb, I wouldn't characterize you as just EdTech. And in fact, stuff that I remember that are very powerful that I've attended is around ESL and ELL, and equity and justice, and SEL and all the things around that stuff, like the human side, too. I've learned so much.

Lisa:

But during the pandemic, every title got inserted remote, online, the online classroom, the remote classroom. So it definitely became a big factor during the pandemic when we were shut down.

Elana:

Yeah. And I mean, the question about effectiveness is hard. And I would say for me effectiveness is where you feel like you have ownership and choice and voice. And certainly at edWeb you do that, but anywhere around, so educators, as you start thinking about, "Gosh, maybe I have a little bit more flexibility in what my district measures for PD and then even beyond PD as we're lifelong learners, what do I want to learn? What am I excited about?" So there's all sort of like, for me, if you're not excited about something and don't have ownership, voice and choice, it's never going to be effective, right?

Lisa:

Right. So I think the big change in the pandemic is that administrators prior to that, I think, were skeptical of whether online professional learning would work, or whether or not their teachers would fully engage, because they weren't able to really monitor it. But they saw the results, which is always like, let's look at the results. And they saw the results of allowing them to engage in virtual professional learning during the pandemic. So they've seen that. They've also been fully aware of the fact that the way PD was being done before didn't work. Everybody knew that.

So now they've had an opportunity to see that if it's virtual, if they get to choose, if you can have flexibility in doing it anytime, anywhere, you can watch a webinar while you cook dinner, you can listen to a podcast while you're commuting, and everybody now gets that that's a more personalized and successful and effective way to do it. And I think, too, I've thought really, especially recently, about I think the administrators, and some of them will still say that they think they know what their teachers need, but our experience in the chats of all the webinars that we do is that the teachers are focused on what their students need. And so they're going to pick a program that is going to help them with a student or a group of students that they want to. So that's really important to accept and realize and honor.

Elana:

That's a really good point, too, is that no matter what I think never fails that an educator always brings it back to the student. I think sometimes for good and bad, because sometimes on this show we talk about how we can integrate self-care and boundaries in educators so they don't burn out, but they all always are thinking about, "I've got this one student, or this class is different. I need help with this." It always kind of marks to that. And I will say when you're talking about effective PD and teachers tuning out, it reminded me of back in the day when I used to be very active on Twitter chats, we'd start talking to people, educators in thread and a lot of them were sometimes in PD mandated to them participating in Twitter chats.

Lisa:

Oh, yeah. Inside.

Elana:

They were choosing their own learning while being forced into it. And I was just like, what is the irony here? So we talked a lot about voice and choice. I would be remiss not to mention the EdCamp movement, where we talk about how educators really take charge of their own learning. If you don't know what an EdCamp is, it's an un-conference that you can go to physically. They also have virtual ones. The EdCamp Foundation recently got purchased by, I think, Digital Promise. You can go to their website, look them up, but they're known for their location-based events where you go there, and passionate educators, just like the day of say, "Oh, I want to learn about robotics, but I don't know much about it. I'm not going to lead a presentation. I just want to be around people to talk about robotics and get some ideas and collaborate." It's purpose-driven, on the spot, here's what I'm interested in learning. And a lot of it, when you're navigating through edWeb, too, it's like, "I want to learn this. I don't want to learn this." And that, for me, is so powerful.

Lisa:

The other thing, too, that has become really recognized, and again I didn't realize even this as much as I've heard about it after or reflecting on the pandemic, is that PD was often just provided to teachers. And virtual professional learning, and what we offer or what others may offer as well, are things that everybody in the whole community can engage in for all staff. Now, we don't actively engage parents, because we feel like we want to be a professional community where professionals are talking to each other or students. So we're focused on that. But paraprofessionals and contractors and bus drivers and so many of the staff, and the business side of the house. Anybody in the whole staff community can engage.

Elana:

Yeah. And that's such a great point, because also school leaders, and you do a lot with school leaders.

Lisa:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Elana:

There's a lot of associations out there that you partner with, but also that have their own professional learning as well. But that's an isolated profession. We talk about educators being isolated, but it's very lonely being at the top at times.

Lisa:

Got it.

Elana:

You don't necessarily have that behavior instilled to reach out and collaborate for help at times. And I love that. So not only are people thinking about, okay, professional development typically a term that triggers educators, that is dictated to educators. What is professional learning beyond educators? And that's a really good point.

Lisa:

Right. Right.

Elana:

So we talked a little bit about educators choosing their own professional development journey, we've talked a little bit about some options out there, but if I'm an educator and maybe I'm new, or maybe I'm just finally getting out of the weeds to say, "What do I need to learn professionally? How do I begin to figure out my own journey in professional learning and interweaving my PD requirements?" And it feels sometimes it can be overwhelming. What would you recommend for them for tips and tricks to get started, but maybe even level up if they've already dabbled kind of into it?

Lisa:

Well, I can't not suggest anything to anyone. I mean, we have on our main website, edWeb.net, we have all of our upcoming programs, and one of the things we find is that that's just how people discover the range of topics. And also we have a social network. People don't have to join our social network to come to any of our webinars, and they're all free. And I think just dipping a toe in and picking a topic is one of the best ways we've just discovered for people to realize how much there is to learn.

Also, the live sessions where our chats are so active, I think they are really the absolutely best part of what we offer. So you can watch them recorded anytime, anywhere for your own personal knowledge, but the collaboration that comes from a panel of educators who are talking to themselves and learning with each other, with the audience commenting and with the sponsor being the host and the fly on the wall, to learn what that means for what they're providing. Sometimes I call it 3D PD, and everybody's learning. I think that's the most valuable way to do it, because I think doing it in community, however you can learn in community, is the most inspiring. And also, I don't know who originally said the smartest person in the room is the room, but you hear that frequently. So if you're in a community, you're in a room with a group of people, the learning is just going to be better from that group engagement.

Elana:

And that's an EdCamp motto too.

Lisa:

I was just going to say that.

Elana:

Right. But we didn't claim it or anything like that. We don't know who said it. It's unknown source. But yes, it is the room. And I think that that's such a powerful statement of not only community can give you that pulse and that inspiration while you're there and have that energy, but it can give you accountability. And I love that, because sometimes we might get inspired by something we hear on edWeb, or we attend a vendor session and we learn how to do this tech that really inspires us, but what next and how do I continue to prioritize it and continue learning?

And something I've seen, and I don't know, I'd love your thoughts on it, but the growing of professional learning communities in membership. So if we have influencers like Monica Burns and Class Tech Tips, she has a membership where people can join, and it's like a cadre or cohort of people, and they just support each other throughout, and they work on goals. And I thought that was such an interesting hybrid of what we're seeing.

Lisa:

I agree. And I think the technology, certainly again with the pandemic, we've all probably had Zoom chats or different communities that sustained us through that time. You and I are both a member of The DOLS, which is one of about a thousand women who are in education in either the industry or on the education side. And they had Zooms every two weeks, continuing that all throughout. And so if you aren't part of a community and you're having trouble finding one, you can start one. And it doesn't have to be large, it can start at a different size.

So I'm a new grandparent. I have a grandson who's two years old, and one of the editors of Scholastic, who we've worked with before, she's a new grand grandparent as well. And we're starting a little grandparent grandmother's book club, and we're going to be on a Zoom for the first time in December. So who knows where that's going to go? So find a community for anything.

Elana:

Yeah. And I love because people know that my loves are community learning, also thinking about content marketing, all of this stuff inner seeds. And I think about our EdTech vendors right now listening, and our partners out there that have EdTech solutions, and sure, they want to deliver stuff, like they say, "Okay, every Wednesday, we're going to go live on Facebook and we're going to demo a feature." And that'll be just quick bites of professional development or learning that they can use the product to become more active users. But that doesn't stick as much if you don't have a complimentary community that maybe helps and is there for you growing and learning along in your journey. So nothing lives on its own in this world. We all just make it better, but I love that you brought in community along with learning can really make effective. And they aren't in siloed worlds where the community does this, and then all your PD and your product marketing is over here.

Lisa:

Well, and we had a presentation this week that I'm thinking, "Oh, so many people need to know about this." So then I realized I need to sit down and really make a list of all the communities that I can post it in, and how I can get it out, and how I can have more people watch it. It was all around equity and workforce and education, with an amazing panel of educators and their superintendents and what they're doing. But assuming you can almost go forever in making your lists of all your networks and how you can get it out to different groups. So I do think that's one of the challenges in this day and age, how do you take the content that you have? And I know this is your expertise, so I hope we can talk more about this. So how can you take the content that you have and figure out an efficient easy way to get it out and keep it out there for others to discover?

Elana:

And I think the thread that we're talking about is value, and with professional development and professional learning and community, we all just say what's the most valuable thing we can do that we can provide, that our community can co-create with us? So if you lead with value and your target audience, and we were talking about focus groups and all the things, like really making sure that what we're providing is hitting the most pressing needs of educators today. And sometimes when we think about PD, I feel like in EdTech, we go product and we go, "How can we use our product?" But there's also this whole beautiful world around professional learning that's about the topics that they care about most as well. And I don't know about you, but I very rarely see it in more of a professional learning venue that I see EdTech companies do that, but that's a huge opportunity for that.

And I wanted to kind of shift over towards the EdTech folks, because many of them create professional development, they create tutorials, they create Facebook lives, they do webinars. You partner with lots of them to create webinars. So you get to be on that marketing and sales side, and the funnel, too. What advice do you have for them to get into the world of professional development and professional learning, but what should they do that actually works? Because we see lots of missteps, and that's okay, that's how we learn. But I'd love to be able to give them advice to set them in the right direction and potentially do it in a consistent manner. Because sometimes they do one and done, they're like, "Okay, did it."

Lisa:

Well, I love that you said consistency, because I do think consistency is really important. Sometimes you see people with a big plan, and they come out and do a lot at once, but then they take a hiatus, come back. So you really want to think about what you can do on a sustainable basis.

I do think that webinars are great. We're not the only ones who do them. They're other media companies that can help you do them. And then also a lot of our sponsors do them themselves. So that's another option. I think a great thing is to experiment with the different external folks who can help you do it. Trying internally is a little scarier, because you want to make sure that you have a platform and know how it works, and you have to coach your presenters. We see so many different styles that are effective, but basically I would say, do an assessment of what you know are the critical topics in the area of work that you're in. If you're a reading company, if you're a math company, companies in that space usually know what the critical topics are. So you want to craft a topic around that. Start with what you think is going to be the most popular topic and have your presenters represent the audience that you want to reach. And it's usually good to have a couple of them on so they can talk back and forth. They can know each other or not know each other. And if you know that they're doing great work. And they are teachers if you want to reach teachers, or they're administrators if you want to reach administrators.

And then you have a good way to do the marketing part of it, to have a list of people to invite. I mean, that's one of the ways in which we really provide a lot of benefit, because we have an enormous list all tagged for all the professional learning topics that they're interested in. So that's kind of a gold mine, but then that's going to be successful.

Elana:

Yeah. And I was just thinking of if I'm in an EdTech company and I'm structured as, maybe I've got marketing, I've got maybe a product marketing focus, and I've got sales, and then I've got social media and I've got community. If you're well-staffed enough, you have at least somebody that has hours devoted to those things. Whose role is it for what? And when we narrowly define PD is just how do I use the product? We're missing it out. And what I love, like when we think about professional learning, what are the things we can do to be a thought leader, whether they be webinars, they could be blog posts, they could be eBooks, all the content marketing things.

And for anybody who is interested in more diving into content marketing, we just released an episode with Annie Teich about content marketing, and she is an expert in the field in EdTech.

Lisa:

That's fantastic.

Elana:

So we'll drop that in the Show Notes, too. But it opens up, if you're an EdTech professional listening, it opens up the possibility and the mediums in which you can deliver professional development. But what we are both saying is be consistent, show up, be continuing about it. And you may need some external partners to help you, especially if you're just getting started. Because the worst thing I see it with EdTech companies, they get so excited about a webinar they do, and they do it, and then five people show up. And it is a habit that people tend to listen to the recording afterwards, but it deflates morale if you only have five people and you spent all this time. So in the beginning, I always say to partner with people, partner, partner, partner. Don't create a Twitter chat, join a Twitter chat as a guest. Don't do a webinar, use different folks to say, "Okay, how can I make sure people are coming that are interested?" And make it a lead then.

Lisa:

Right. But there if you've created the content, so you have the deck, you've gone through what you're going to present, and if you feel that the content is valuable, that the issue isn't the presentation, it's just you didn't get it out to the right audience or enough people. That's so much easier to then say, "All right, who else can help me deliver this? And let's book this somewhere else now." So don't go and create another one. Just take that one and try and have somebody else help you get a better audience.

Elana:

Yes. And then on the social side, I tell them, "Let's slice and dice it in 20 different ways. Let's throw out some audiograms. Let's upload some clips of video." So it's never just the product of the hour-long webinar. It's all the different ways that we can get those little tidbits out to people and help them in their day-to-day.

Lisa:

Yeah. I mean, generally think that sponsors are best at the event itself, getting great presenters coming on, fabulous hosts, which really reflect really well on the organization. That the harder part is how do you then put that content into community somewhere to have it live longer? And then just even from a lead general marketing perspective, how do you get it into your e-newsletters, get it on your website, get it into your social? So I think thinking ahead, often people are thinking about the event itself and need to think more about what are we going to do with that asset when the event is over?

Elana:

And for those of you new to the education space, so we talked a little bit about the lack of agency of educators when they're picking maybe tech products. But say they do get a tech product that they're supposed to use. They may, if they're lucky, get a professional development session on generally how to use it. So maybe I'm using a SMART Board, let's use that example. I might have one session that says here's how you can use it. And I'm like, "Okay, this is a little overwhelming, but I know two ways to use it now, but that's it. That's in my entire professional development for that product."

So if you're an EdTech vendor, know what are the other features that you want them to use. And we're talking strictly product marketing, professional development here, but know that there's this huge drop-off of just like, here's the one PD they get. And that unfortunately is, it feels like, not the exception, but it's the rule for most EdTech products. They get one and done PD, and then we don't have active users, and we wonder why we don't have active users.

Lisa:

But you can also invite them to join a, let's say, a private community. We have them on edWeb where you can have them help each other. So then the full burden is not as much on you, because you've got your champions, you can reward them in certain ways. If you find power users and they can help others, the community can help with that product-oriented PD as well.

Elana:

Yes, 100%. So when the pandemic happened, I would say our biggest leads that came inbound from us were around customer success type of communities. Customer success communities are like, "Okay, we're current customers." How do we make them aware of everything going on, and how do they help each other, and how do they create hacks for different environments, and all of that? We saw that come to life more than ever in the pandemic. And I still see some more emphasis of that, but now in-person's coming, and that's a good thing, too. Because there's things that we can't do virtually that we can do in person too.

Lisa:

But community takes leadership. It is harder. Community takes leadership, it takes consistency. And often the benefits of it are longer term. So if you posted an event and you can count how many leads you got from it, then you know 24 hours later how well that event did. But building community and that support, it's harder to get the ROI, it's harder to get the result. So it tends to not get as much attention.

Elana:

Yeah. And I think I'm slightly on a mission to change that because it's such a power thing.

Lisa:

Yes, I love that.

Elana:

And that's why that we offer it as one of our core offerings, is because we've seen it. Just like social media, just like if you create a lot of content for your brand, all of these things will fundamentally transform your brand in ways that you can't even describe. So I love that. I would just want to throw you one last hardball question around maybe --

Lisa:

How about a softball?

Elana:

Okay, let's do softball because you're recently a grandma. Let's do a softball.

Lisa:

All right.

Elana:

If you had a magic wand, how would you create the best, maybe not the best PD or the best professional learning or PD, wherever you want to take it, for educators in particular? Because I think your advice, EdTech professionals can be like, "Oh, I want to be like that more, because that's what Lisa said." [laughter]

Lisa:

Are there some ways to have our online engagement and the level and the quality of that on any topic you want 24/7? I mean, we are an East Coast-based company, although we're completely virtual since the pandemic. We shut down the office, we're never going back. Everybody's happier being completely virtual, which is great. I am, too. I'm in my home office. But the engagement we see there, maybe we need staff in California time, but we have people coming around the world. Maybe we need staff in India.

But I think that the ability to go on somewhere and pick any topic and have somebody presenting like they present on a webinar with several hundred people on there at the same time would be fantastic.

Elana:

So more on-demand kind of personalization, but maybe even just like I can pop on and be like, if I'm in India, I can have maybe somebody that I relate to as well. So there's this personalization of it, too. And I actually really love when I attend your webinars, too. You have a diverse -- like, when you do a panel, it's an educator, a leader. So there's usually always a different stakeholder that I can identify with, but I appreciate having them all in the same room, because I'm like, "Oh, that's how they think." And you can see the light bulbs when they're talking to each other, too.

Lisa:

And actually something that I do say to organizations, we have many, many companies who come to us who really, really want to connect with district administrators at the highest level. "How can we reach superintendents?" So the panel that we had this week with superintendents was so great. We had four superintendents on, and they love an opportunity to talk with other superintendents on important topics that they're struggling with. And it's only an hour. So it's not a huge amount out of their time. They didn't have to do a lot of preparation for it, because we're just asking them to talk about their current work and experience and successes. They know that. Easily they could talk about that all day long and share some of that with each other.

So you're doing those individuals, in terms of building your relationships with superintendents who might be your customers, or superintendents you'd like to be connected to, to offer them that opportunity is really a great way to build relationships with that group.

Elana:

And just to underline what Lisa said, so she's saying, why don't you invite key stakeholders? And these might even be your decision-makers, some of them are quite influential, but you're not getting them on a webinar to endorse your product. You're getting them on the webinar to just share and really reinforce. You are not endorsing our product and all the things because then they will be hesitant. But come in and share things that are aligned core to your brand. "What are your challenges related to communication? What are your challenges related to attendance?" Whatever it may be that's core to your brand, you can get them to talk about it, and it's powerful.

Lisa:

It's a good analogy. The way I explain it to folks is to think of it as though you're submitting a speaker proposal for one of the big education conferences, and they can't be vendor-related at all, or they won't accept your proposal. And so think of it that way. And what you're asking them to do is something that's going to take an hour virtually. And then when you think about, because we're doing this, I'm going back to FETC, I'm going to South by Southwest. When you think of the logistics of pulling that together in person and supporting the travel and expense and the time and everything going in to having somebody do that at a conference, the virtual alternative is just so much easier and really gives you, I think, an equivalent value in building the relationships with those stakeholders.

Elana:

100%. So Lisa, any parting thoughts around, and we've gone up and down the world of professional development, professional learning, a little bit of product marketing. Any last thoughts around this ever-changing world?

Lisa:

Good question. I mean, my parting thought right now is really something I feel all the time, but with Thanksgiving coming up next week, I'm just particularly thankful and grateful for educators and the ability to help them with this work. And I think any of us who provide professional learning for educators now, you're doing such a great service for them, and they appreciate it so much, and you just get a world of thanks for helping them with the issues that they're dealing with right now. And whatever your organization does to try to make it better for students and parents and educators, they really appreciate your help.

Elana:

Yeah. So important. And I think sometimes within a marketing plan, we can lose the why, and the why is so incredibly powerful for educators.

Lisa:

Yeah. Especially why.

Elana:

Yeah. Especially because we know systematically a lot of the learning isn't 100% supported or made time in the day for educators. So how can you make their lives easier? Such a good point.

So Lisa, the last question we ask all of our guests is really about inspiration, and in education and especially when you are running your own business, now almost 15 years old, I'm just so in awe of that -- when you have those days that your tank is on empty, you are just, "I want to go stare at a blank wall because I've had such a challenging day and my energy is depleted." What do you do that refuels you personally? Activities, habits, what gets you going?

Lisa:

I have to say that doing this work is always rewarding and energizing. It always fills up my tank. I think I struggle a little bit more that there other things I should do, but then I'm always saying, "Is that going to have an impact?" I mean, I know if I do more exercise that will have a benefit for me, but that's just helping me. And so I love what I do. I would say people. People really do energize me. So I love now, post-pandemic, that I can go out and have a lovely dinner with friends and talk about what they're interested in and what we're all doing together.

Going back to conferences. I've been so energized going to conferences. I've been going every week for the past couple of months, and I've gotten so much energy from that. And I am so thankful to be in the world of education and know and get to meet so many people in education.

So that does really do it for me. I mean, I do read and binge-watch some shows on TV, but I'm so motivated by the work that it's really the thing I focus on the most.

Elana:

Great. And I think for some reason conferences wouldn't be the number one thing I would list for energy. No, but when I go there, I'm also an ambivert, so I get drained, but then I get so much energy and inspiration of what could be and the people and all the things. But you're right. When I go to conferences, though, I do get in general really inspired, and I somewhat take it for granted, because in our industry it's not like we're going talking about how people are making paper. People are changing lives on a national, sometimes international scale. And it's inspiring the field we're in.

Lisa:

Yeah, it really is. Now I can relate to what you're saying a little bit, too, because I say on Friday I'm going home and I'm getting in my pajamas, and I'm not coming out of them until Sunday or Monday. So I can do that, too.

Elana:

No problem. Well, thank you, Lisa, so much for joining us. We learned a ton. We could be talking your ear off all the time about professional learning, all the things you see every day that your company has, what was it, four million hours?

Lisa:

Yeah. So we're actually now close to a million and a half members in 185 countries. And that's really pretty astounding. 700,000 have joined our network, but as I said, they don't have to. They come to our webinars. And we've issued four million certificates for professional learning during the period of time since we've been doing that.

Elana:

Anybody knows how educators are learning and what's working in best practices. I'm just so glad you were able to spend time with us on that topic.

Lisa:

Thank you.

Elana:

Thank you so much, Lisa. Is there --

Lisa:

Oh, I'll say one more thing, Elana, before we go, which is that one thing that people are talking about related to the workforce issues, which is that providing quality professional learning for your staff helps with retention and culture at a time when it's really difficult. So it's not just about the learning in and of itself, it's how people are. You can support their wellness, their mental health, and their positivity about the profession.

Elana:

Yes. That's a really, especially now when we're seeing layoffs and turnover and all the things, that's so important and timely. Lisa, how can people get ahold of you and your organization for context? And then we will also put it in our Show Notes, too, and any resources that you want to provide, we'll put them in our Show Notes, too.

Lisa:

Well, if they just go to edWeb.net, they'll find everything to explore there and they can join or just hop on a webinar, which would be fantastic. And my email address is lisa@edweb.net.

Elana:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. For those of you who are saying, she mentioned Show Notes, where are those at? The Show Notes URL is at leoniconsultinggroup.com. So two g's, leoniconsultinggroup.com/38. That's the age I tell people I am. For detailed notes, and we'll have all of it, we got transcript and all the resources as well as the embedded audio in the Show Notes. So thank you again, Lisa. We will see you --

Lisa:

Oh, thank you, Elana. It was such a pleasure to talk to you.

Elana:

Oh yes, my pleasure. We will see you all next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Thank you all for your time. Take care.

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